Pecos SWW<>A Case of Maxtaken Identity

A Case of Maxtaken Identity

Ordering computer equipment online can be fun and thrifty, but sometimes things go wrong. This is the story of my first bad online buying experience.

Welcome to the Pecos Buffet! Grab a plate and help yourself.

A Little Bit of This.
The school of hard knocks can be a hard teacher
When disaster strikes, be prepared
A Case of Maxtaken Identity

A Little Bit of That.
Do what you promise and promise what you can do
When is a hard drive not a hard drive?

The Buffet Desert and More From Your Gracious Waiter
Editorial Privilege

The school of hard knocks can be a hard teacher.

As much as I loathe shopping for groceries or items at the local box store, I actually enjoy shopping for computer goodies online. I have a list of favorite online vendors that I am aware of that I shop at and have emails sent with the latest bargains. I never had a problem, or more correctly stated I wasn't aware of any problems until a recent Saturday in April. That was when my online shopping luck not only ran out, but took a decided turn for the worse.

During August through September 2006 I ordered a lot of computer equipment from Newegg and one of the items, a Maxtor 250 GB Maxtor SATA hard drive was what the online vendors call "Open Box". An hour after my order I realized that I wanted to try out the Intel Matrix RAID. So I called them and asked them to add another identical "Open Box" Maxtor hard drive to my order. They told me that it had already been boxed and I would have to order it as a separate item. I decided that for the extra $6.00 in shipping to do so. When I received my order, I noticed that one Maxtor was indeed a returned Maxtor hard drive. But the second hard drive shipped in a separate box said "Refurbished to MAXTOR Specifications" on it. I was unhappy about that, but it worked when I installed it so I used it and didn't think all that much about it.

When disaster strikes, be prepared.

That is until this Saturday the 21st of April 2007, approximately eight months after my original order. I was in the process of deleting files prior to a complete backup that I wanted to do before experimenting with configuring my RAID array in Kubuntu 7.04 Feisty Fawn. I was getting error messages when trying to move files. I was confused at first, but after 15 minutes I realized I was seeing the symptoms of the sudden failure of a hard drive. I also knew exactly which hard drive had failed. Now I know that this is nuts, but it seems like that hard drive knew that I was working on a full backup! Sure enough, when I rebooted my computer the RAID 0 (striped) volume showed as Normal and the RAID 1 (mirrored) volume showed as Failed. And which drive was missing from the RAID array? You guessed it, the refurbished drive.

I made the mistake of rebooting the computer again. The RAID 0 (striped) volume showed as Failed and the RAID 1 (mirrored) volume showed as Degraded. My Vista RC1 operating system was on the striped volume and was now lost including all of the emails in my MS Mail boxes. Fortunately, I have learned the hard way to export my emails occasionally when doing any major OS work on my system and I lost no important emails.

I went to Newegg to look for a replacement drive. RAID arrays can be very particular about the type of hard drives you mix and match with so I went looking for an identical replacement drive. Unfortunately, they did not have a Maxtor drive of that model and I didn't feel like experimenting with a similar drive. I fired of an email to Newegg explaining that I had received the wrong drive. I was very unhappy that one of the "Open Box" items I ordered said "Refurbished to MAXTOR Specifications". Not only wasn't it "Open Box", but that implied that it wasn't refurbished by Maxtor, which made me even more concerned.

Their reply wasn't all that unexpected. They noted their 15 day policy for "Open Box" RMA's

I realize I have much (most?) of the responsibility by accepting the hard drive. However, I ordered 'Open Box' and got 'Refurbished' which is a different item entirely. I never order refurbished items because I know I am getting someone else's problem item that may or may not be fixed. More often than not it is just a lemon that should be relegated to the electronic scrap heap. No doubt vendors are aware of this as well based on the number of returns they get.

Now you might ask why after seven months I bothered telling Newegg that I had received an incorrect item. That is a good question. Put yourself in my shoes. You are excited to get your hard drives and looking forward to setting up your RAID array. But I had two working hard drives and I was excited and itching to get to work on my system. When I installed the refurbished drive it seemed to be working. At that point I decided that I didn't want the hassle of the RMA and the additional expense of shipping it back to Newegg.

You are still wearing my shoes. What would you do? It is human nature to avoid the extra hassle, costs and time to do the RMA especially when you have a hard drive in the hand.

This was the first bad experience I have had with Newegg and I have ordered a lot of computer and camera gear from them. Sitting here now after all of these problems I have to think this: I wouldn't be in this situation if Newegg had just sent what I ordered in the first place. I made sure that my subsequent emails to them gave them my perspective. If the hard drive had survived another four or five months I wouldn't have bothered mentioning to them at all.

A Case of Maxtaken Identity

With the unfortunate and untimely death of my 'Refurbed' Maxtor hard drive I began on what was to become one of the strangest online shopping journeys one could imagine. I couldn't even make up something this bizarre.

I ordered a replacement 'new' Maxtor DiamondMax 10 250GB SATA I 1.5 GB/s16 MB buffer hard drive from ZipZoomFly. Now as much as I hate all of those specs, or having to type them all here for you to be confused by, it was very important that I find a matching drive for my existing hard drive and those specs are exactly what I needed to order a replacement for my RAID array. I ordered the drive and paid a little extra for two-day shipment. When I got it I immediately noticed some very strange things.

It said Quickview in the middle and upper right part of the label, not DiamondMax 10
The model number was 6L250S0, the same as the DiamondMax 10
The manufacture date was 29MAY2006, almost 11 months ago

Now perhaps I am jinxed, but what I received was a Maxtor Quickview drive, not a DiamondMax 10, with the same specs and model number. There is something strange that happens to you when you get a new piece of hardware from that FedEx guy. The first thing you want to do is plug it in and get it working. That is exactly what I did even after my Newegg experience. I received the same error message on my RAID POST screen. Not good. I carefully removed the drive so I could tell if it was spinning up. Nothing.

I called Seagate tech support (they bought Maxtor) and the tech was very friendly and offered to replace the bad drive. During the conversation I asked him if the Quickview drive had NCQ (Native Command Queuing) and he told me no. The drive was similar but not what I ordered. He could only replace my bad drive with another Quickview drive, which I did understand. I offered to pay additional for the DiamondMax 10 but he said he could not do that either. I thanked him. I would have never known that the Quickview drive was not NCQ if the drive had been working.

I called ZipZoomFly and talked to Mike. After a somewhat lengthy discussion of what I got and what I thought I was getting, he told me to take some pictures so they could verify that it was not as advertised. He was courteous and understanding. I sent the pics by email and told him that Seagate tech said that this drive did not have NCQ.

Do what you promise and promise what you can do

Later that night I ordered my third Maxtor DiamondMax 10 250GB SATA I 1.5 GB/s16 MB buffer hard drive, this time from PC Connection. I should mention that I had no way to ask them to verify that the model was a DiamondMax during the online order process, but the follow-up questionnaire I had a place to type some comments and I asked to please verify the model name. I was sure that it was already too late, but mentioned it anyway to document the issues I had experienced. Who knew what I was going to receive? I was still holding out hope that I would actually receive exactly what I ordered. Is that too much to ask for?

On Friday I got my prepaid return RMA approved. The following Monday I shipped back the second Maxtor drive and later that morning received my third Maxtor drive. I opened it up and what did I see? That now ugly word Quickview! Of course I didn't even bother to open the anti-static bag holding the drive. I immediately got on the phone and talked to Matthew at PC Connection. Poor Matthew. He didn't fully understand the situation and I tried to explain it again agreeing with him that it was all very confusing. He couldn't understand why it was a different drive if the model number was the same. I had to agree with him, but logic wasn't going to be useful in this situation. There was no logic to it. The drive was the same model number with a different model name and different performance specs, at least according to Seagate technical support. It made no sense at all.

Matthew was very patient with me and I with him. He told me that his tech people couldn't verify my story, but he would get back with me. I think we spent a half an hour hashing it all out. Later he called me for the serial number. Before the end of the day I had a prepaid return label authorization via UPS.

In my opinion, both vendors operated in good faith. I really believe that they thought they were sending what they advertised. Why do I think that? The box that PC Connection sent was a large box containing a smaller box that seemed to be the original and on the outside there was a label clearly marking it as a 250GB DIAMOND MAX SATA 72 6L250S0 hard drive.

Even weirder is the manufacturing date on the third Maxtor drive - 27MAY2006, just two days before the manufacture date of my last disaster. Where did these hard drives sit for 11 months? Surely not on the shelves of the two vendors. And it is not likely a coincidence that both vendors could send me the wrong drive and both wrong drives made only two days apart. Both vendors to their credit resolved a bad situation to my satisfaction and were courteous and understanding in doing so.

Another reason that I believe that PC Connection acted in good faith was the desire that Matthew showed to get to the bottom of this. Not only did he believe my story, but he made my problem his problem and put a lot of time and energy into getting me an answer. I had requested that he contact me when he found out more but I didn't really expect him to. He really impressed me. He followed up our phone conversations with an email that noted that the Quickview drive had special firmware that optimized it for video/data streaming devices and that it did support NCQ. He also noted that the only way to know whether you had the DiamondMax or Quickview version is to open up the box.

When is a hard drive not a hard drive?

The information I have found on the web fully supports what Matthew says. This is the information I have been able to find and verify online:

The model number of the Quickview and DiamondMax models are the same
At least one online vendor is selling the Quickview model as a Maxtor 6L250S0 7200 RPM, 250GB, 16 MB buffer SATA 1.5 GB/s drive without mentioning that it is a Quickview drive or that it may not be appropriate for most PC users.
The Quickview drive has special firmware that is optimized for video and data streaming
The Seagate DB35 drives are also optimized for video and data streaming
These drives are designed specifically for use in DVR's (Digital Video Recorders), STB's (Set Top Boxes), gaming boxes and other non-PC electronic devices.

This is the only spec sheet (in pdf format, 882 KB) that I could find on the Quickview.

This fascinating webpage outlines the differences that the Quickview drive offers for video/data streaming applications. The way I read that page, the Quickview drive allows more data errors to be ignored allowing for faster video playback. That is not exactly a good idea though when trying to save your Excel spreadsheet or Word document that you have spent hours or days working on.

Waiter! I want to look at my buffet choices again.

Editorial Privilege

This is the section where I am allowed to stray from the facts, give my opinions and feelings and make speculations and inferences.

Now I can speculate about what actually occurred here. I am convinced that it has everything to do with the acquisition of Maxtor by Seagate. If you take a look at Frys.com you won't find any internal Maxtor hard drives. This implies to me that their existing stock has been sold and no new Maxtor drives are available. The manufacture date on the drives I received is certainly suggestive as well.

I recommend that if you get a Quickview drive instead of the DiamondMax model, it is best to send it back.

Which leads me to this advice. Make sure that what you get is what you ordered well before the RMA return expiration date. Be careful if you are ordering a Maxtor product. I have always had good performance and reliability in the past. But with the purchase of Maxtor by Seagate and the run of bad luck I have had with the 6L250S0 model, it may be wise to purchase another brand. If you do decide to go with Maxtor, just verify that you are really getting what you ordered.

I can't in good conscience order another DiamondMax 10 hard drive after what I have learned. No doubt, I would end up with another Quickview. I still want to do RAID, so my only option at this point is to buy two new matching hard drives. This is getting to be an expensive lesson at the school of hard knocks.

I have decided for the moment to run my system in 'Degraded' RAID status. I am kind of battle weary at this point.

And what of the fact that I was told by Seagate/Maxtor technical support that the Quickview drive did not have NCQ? Perhaps I misunderstood him or he me, but I do believe that Matthew is correct and the drive has NCQ. I have not been able to verify that or that the buffer size is 16 MB, but if it is truly a subset of the DiamondMax model, it would make sense that both NCQ and 16 MB features would also be on the Quickview model.

I should mention for the purposes of full disclosure that I received a free 300 GB ATA DiamondMax 10 hard drive from Maxtor. See my first motherboard review for the story and for the Obituary I wrote for my first Maxtor hard drive, Max. This may be unique in the annals of online shopping. The compensation was given before any transgression was committed.

I have much to thank Maxtor for. Receiving that hard drive has totally changed my life, really! I was semi-retired and couldn't find anything challenging to do that interested me. After receiving the hard drive, I decided that it needed a new home. That led me to building my first computer. That led me to documenting my build and reviewing the hardware. That led to other reviews and eventually this very article.

I am still looking to buy a Maxtor product. While the DiamondMax seems to be hard to come by, I might try my luck with the Maxline III model. I will have to buy two so that they are a matched pair, but that will give me a fourth drive that I can use for testing software with.

I want to personally thank Newegg, ZipZoomFly and PC Connection customer service representatives for their professional attitude and honest to goodness top rate customer service. I did not let any of them know that I am a writer of sorts and like to write reviews and helpful articles for my website - well at least not until we had already resolved the case of Maxtaken identity.

In writing this I hope that someone will find something good out of my bad situation. I know I have. Now if you will excuse me, please. Other diners are asking for me to serve them some lemonade. We have plenty of lemonade. Our little buffet has had more than enough lemons to squeeze of late.

Update Monday April 30: Even though I fully admit that much or most of the responsibility was mine for not sending the drive back in the first place, Newegg has graciously resolved this to my satisfaction. I still believe that 'Open Box' is not the same as 'Refurbished' and the wrong item was sent. I am a generous person, or at least try to be, and am grateful for Newegg's offered resolution. Technically speaking, they probably don't have to offer me anything at this point.

Update May 12, 2007: kony is critical of my RAID implementation and my reply: alt.comp.hardware discussion

Update May 15, 2007: I have been using Usenet since 1995. I very rarely ask for advice. This was an experiment of sorts - present the facts and let the experts out there help me decide. I made the following post to alt.comp.hardware, alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt and comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage:

I am seeking advice from all of you experienced hardware experts out there to write the final chapter in A Case of Maxtaken Identity.

I am still trying to replace my now defunct Maxtor DiamondMax 10 250GB SATA I 1.5 GB/s 16 MB hard drive, one of two drives in my RAID array. I now have several options. During a call to Seagate/Maxtor to get some information about their Maxtor Maxline III models, I happened to ask them if there was a warranty on my refurbished drive. The surprise answer was that it was still under warranty.

I was very happy to hear this. After I received the email stating what I needed to do to send the drive to them, I noted that they have a program that would allow me to receive a hard drive via two day air before returning the bad drive. They would also send the packaging needed for returning the bad drive (which I need) and prepay for the return shipping. This would cost $19.99.

I also noticed in the email that physical damage to the drive would void the warranty. When I called Seagate/Maxtor back to cancel the original RMA and sign up for the Advanced Replacement program, I was honest and told them that after the drive had failed, I had taken it out and tapped it on the floor to free any possible stuck heads. I knew this trick sometimes worked with older drives. The support person told me that if the drive was damaged internally, I would be charged for a replacement drive. I also told her that the drive clicks five or more times during POST. I don't know if it did that before my 'last chance' risky fix, that wasn't a last chance risky fix after all now that I know it had a warranty. ;-)

Option 1:
Return the Maxtor DiamondMax 10 6L250S0 GB SATA I 16 MB NCQ drive to Seagate/Maxtor for a replacement drive. The replacement drive will most likely also be a refurbished drive.
Risk the additional cost of a replacement drive if the warranty has been voided.
The warranty expires April 16, 2009.

Option 2:
Buy two new Maxtor Maxline III 7V250F0 250 GB SATA II 16 MB NCQ drives with 3 year warranties.
Cost:
$130 more than Option 1 if the warranty on old drive is good
$50 more than Option 1 if the warranty on old drive is void

This seemed like a no-brainer until I read about the possibility that I may have voided the warranty.

So all of you esteemed hardware veterans out there - have I toasted my old drive and will it have internal damage? Has this in fact voided my warranty?

Please help me write the final chapter in my article: http://pecos-softwareworks.com/a_case_of_maxtaken_identity.shtml

I will tally up the votes for Options 1 and 2 and will update my webpage with a summary of who voted and how you voted. I am doing this as a sort of an experiment. Unless I have a really good reason not to, I am letting you make the final(??) choice for me.

Voting ends 3 PM EST May 15 or until I place my order. Additional comments/advice as to your choice is appreciated but not necessary.

You can read the whole thread here.

Admittedly the whole voting thing is rather silly - OK, very silly. But I was asking for no more than a simple recommendation. It was a very interesting experiment.

After all of these years of helping others, I wanted to see what it was like on the other side, so I asked for advice. The results as promised:

Option 1 - Return Drive to Maxtor/Seagate - 0 votes
Option 2 - Buy two new 7V250F0 Maxtor drives - 0 votes

That's right, no votes at all. The post to alt.comp.hardware took 1 1/2 days to reach the servers and was never seen. I got no replies in alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt. I had seven replies to my post in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage, only three before my 'deadline'. Not only did no one want to play along, I got little useful advice. One reply from Arno Wagner said to forget Maxtor and buy a Samsung drive. Even after explaining why I wanted to remain loyal to the Maxtor brand, Impmon wanted to save me from myself by listing the bad experiences he had with Maxtor. I have no doubt that these people were trying to be helpful, but I asked people to 'vote' (i.e. recommend) one of two options. People on Usenet seldom read and answer the original poster's question(s). But I digress.

One person, Rod Speed restored my faith in humanity. He didn't recommend which option I should choose, but helped me far more by answering my questions with in-line replies. My basic question was "had I damaged my drive internally?" His answer suggests that I hadn't done that. Thank you Rod for your help.

I called Seagate/Maxtor and ordered their Advanced Replacement feature for my warranty return in part due to Rod's answer to my questions but also in part because I received no reply to the email I sent to the online vendor asking for them to verify that the model name really was Maxline III. I should also mention that if you have to return a hard drive that is for a RAID array, be sure to let the support person know that fact.

I don't expect to get much service out of the drive, but if I can postpone the inevitable purchase of two new drives by a year or more, I will be happy with that.

Update June 21 2007: I thought it appropriate to post an update on the longest day of the year. I guess it was too much to ask for to have this saga end quietly and peacefully without further problems. The simple process of getting a replacement drive has been a very long hardware replacement project and it isn't over yet. I have received my replacement drive and all is well. It is refurbished as expected. Seagate either forgot to send the prepaid return label or was sending it by mail - minor problem. A call to their technical support quickly resolved that, or so I thought. I have called five times (they say four times - does it matter?) and emailed once and am still waiting for my prepaid return label. Each time I call, they say a prepaid return label is on the way and I should receive it within five days. Seagate has extended the return period so that I will not be automatically billed for the replacement drive. As of the last call, I have been informed that the issue has been escalated to management and they are waiting for an answer. Each week now I call and spend 10-20 minutes of my time to get an update. Hell of a way to run a railroad.

The model numbers and model names are the same and everything seems to be working perfectly. The firmware version of the replacement drive is BACE1G70 and the firmware version of my other drive is BANC1G10. Even though there seems to be a big difference in the firmware versions, my RAID is working flawlessly, though probably not at an optimal performance. It ain't broke and I just don't want to risk breaking anything at this point. I can't tell you how good it feels to have my RAID working again. I won't ever go back to a single hard drive in any system I buy or build in the future.

I have returned the small compensation given to me by Newegg. Once I found out that the drive was still under warranty, I felt it irresponsible of me to keep the compensation, though I still believe that I shouldn't have received a refurbished drive for an open box item.

Update July 24 2007: Beginning on my 4th phone call to Seagate/Maxtor technical support I began taking notes. This was getting to be quite strange to say the least. You may not believe my story after what you have already read here, but I'm not a good fiction writer and this is what actually happened. I can't blame you though if you don't believe me.

4th phone call June 12

5th phone call June 19

6th phone call June 26 Michael I asked if I could be reimbursed for sending the drive back myself. The answer was no

7th phone call July 3 Bob

8th phone call July 10 Sandra

9th phone call July 17 System down. Asked to call back.

10th phone call July 17 Renee I found out that three labels had been sent (none received). I was told that customers were having problems getting their prepaid return label. I was also told that the labels were sent UPS although I had been told in an earlier phone call that I would receive them by USPS. Renee asked me for an alternate address, but I didn't have one to give her. I told Renee that I thought I would receive them by USPS and that I would check around the house in case UPS had left the package somewhere out of the way. No such luck.

11th phone call July 24 No music while waiting for customer support. After 15+ minutes I hung up.

12th phone call July 24 No music. Hung up after one minute (appx).

13th phone call July 24 Lilly/Lillie Got music and customer rep almost immediately. She put me on hold for a long time, 5-10 minutes? I thought I had been disconnected, but she finally came back and said that because this had already been escalated five times, I would receive my label in 24 to 48 hours. This was different from the past calls when I was told to expect the label within five days. I asked if I could call whomever is responsible for getting the label to me, but no, I couldn't do this. I asked if this could be done any different way since there was an obvious problem here. I was told the same information - I would get the label in 24 to 48 hours. I am dubious to say the least that I will actually end this saga in a couple of days.

Every phone call up until the 24th was pretty much the same. Talk to rep. Explain problem. Be put on hold for about two minutes. Verify address (I did get the drive sent to the correct address after all, but we went through this pointless exercise every call). Sometimes I would be put on hold again and told that this issue was being escalated.

Update August 12, 2007: I did get a phone call from Michelle at Seagate/Maxtor support within 48 hours. She wanted to email me a link to an electronic prepaid return label that I could print. Even though I had received a warning notification on July 12th that my account was about to be charged if I did not return the bad drive (the purest definition of irony and adding insult to injury), she did not have my new email address. I gave her my new email address. She wanted me to send her an email when I had received it. Amazingly, I did receive it in a few minutes. That was easy. Thank you Michelle! Now the obvious question is why hadn't they simply emailed a link to an electronic prepaid return label in the first place.

As of this update I have not been charged for the replacement hard drive and, dare I even say it, this incredible story may finally have come to an end.

From that bad Saturday, April 21st 2007 when my refurbished Maxtor drive died until I returned it by UPS on August 26th 2007 it has taken more than four months for this saga to come to a conclusion.

Waiter! I want to look at my buffet choices again.

We do not offer doggy bags, but you may buy more food by the pound and we encourage you to share our food with your friends. If you do so, please tell them where you got it.

Pecos SoftWareWorks

A Case of Maxtaken Identity
My first bad online buying experience

A Case of Maxtaken Identity

Ordering computer equipment online can be fun and thrifty, but sometimes things go wrong. This is the story of my first bad online buying experience.

4th phone call June 12
5th phone call June 19
6th phone call June 26	Michael	I asked if I could be reimbursed for sending the drive back myself. The answer was no
7th phone call July 3	Bob
8th phone call July 10	Sandra
9th phone call July 17		System down. Asked to call back.
10th phone call July 17	Renee	I found out that three labels had been sent (none received). I was told that customers were having problems getting their prepaid return label. I was also told that the labels were sent UPS although I had been told in an earlier phone call that I would receive them by USPS. Renee asked me for an alternate address, but I didn't have one to give her. I told Renee that I thought I would receive them by USPS and that I would check around the house in case UPS had left the package somewhere out of the way. No such luck.
11th phone call July 24		No music while waiting for customer support. After 15+ minutes I hung up.
12th phone call July 24		No music. Hung up after one minute (appx).
13th phone call July 24	Lilly/Lillie	Got music and customer rep almost immediately. She put me on hold for a long time, 5-10 minutes? I thought I had been disconnected, but she finally came back and said that because this had already been escalated five times, I would receive my label in 24 to 48 hours. This was different from the past calls when I was told to expect the label within five days. I asked if I could call whomever is responsible for getting the label to me, but no, I couldn't do this. I asked if this could be done any different way since there was an obvious problem here. I was told the same information - I would get the label in 24 to 48 hours. I am dubious to say the least that I will actually end this saga in a couple of days.

Pecos SoftWareWorks

A Case of Maxtaken IdentityMy first bad online buying experience

A Case of Maxtaken Identity

Ordering computer equipment online can be fun and thrifty, but sometimes things go wrong. This is the story of my first bad online buying experience.

A Case of Maxtaken Identity
My first bad online buying experience